From quinn@fazigu.org Sat Jan 17 13:48:06 2004 Return-path: Envelope-to: quinn@localhost Delivery-date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:48:06 -0500 Received: from requiem ([127.0.0.1] helo=localhost ident=quinn) by requiem with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AhvUM-0004Nj-00 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:48:06 -0500 X-Original-To: quinn@netsville.com Delivered-To: quinn@netsville.com Received: from requiem [127.0.0.1] by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-6.2.4) for quinn@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:48:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from psmtp.com (exprod5mx27.postini.com [12.158.34.182]) by corpmail.netsville.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E3DD84BA8E for ; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:48:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from source ([66.100.236.130]) by exprod5mx27.postini.com ([12.158.34.245]) with SMTP; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:48:48 PST Received: (qmail 98169 invoked from network); 17 Jan 2004 18:58:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moo.ghostmoo.org) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 17 Jan 2004 18:58:11 -0000 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:58:11 -0400 From: "Quinn@Ghostwheel" To: quinn@netsville.com Subject: Ghostwheel Message(s) 2094 - 2110 from *ideas (#504) X-Mail-Agent: Ghostwheel (moo.ghostmoo.org 6969) Message-Id: <20040117184848.E3DD84BA8E@corpmail.netsville.com> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on requiem X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01 autolearn=ham version=2.61 Status: RO Content-Length: 10087 Lines: 351 Message 2094 from *ideas (#504): Date: Tue Dec 16 19:22:22 2003 CST From: Quinn (#2) To: *ideas (#504) Subject: new skill tree I'd appreciate comments on the following restructuring of the skill tree. The primary consideration is how a parent skill affects its children. That is, a good brawler will be more likely to be a good, er, biter. Throwing involves a certain type of hand-eye coordination, as does shooting. An expert rifleman will probably be able to adapt his skills (with work) to a pistol, and be generally familiar with other physical skills. I'm limiting the tree to three branches: top grandparent, parent, and children. Asterisks indicate a new skill. *Physical/Body/Brawn Unarmed Bite Claw Flail Brawl Armed Bladed Blunt Whip * Spear(Trident) * Offensive Shock Dodge Throwing Disc(Discus) * Lob * Knife * Javelin Shooting * Pistol * Rifle * Autofire Archery Sling *Mental/Soul/Brains * Ingenuity Medic Hacker Lockpick Tailor Tinker * Awareness Perception Focus -------------------------- Message 2095 from *ideas (#504): Date: Tue Dec 16 19:59:11 2003 CST From: Heretic (#6143) To: *ideas (#504) Subject: how about *Physical/Body/Brawn * Movement * Swimming * Climbing * Running * Dancing * Acrobatics Unarmed Bite Claw Flail Brawl Armed Bladed Blunt Whip * Spear(Trident) * Defensive Shock Dodge Throwing Disc(Discus) * Lob * Knife * Javelin Shooting * Pistol * Rifle * Autofire Archery Sling *Mental/Soul/Brains * Ingenuity Medic Hacker Lockpick Tailor Tinker * Awareness Perception Focus -------------------------- Message 2096 from *ideas (#504): Date: Tue Dec 16 20:13:33 2003 CST From: Coreen (#18717) To: *ideas (#504) Subject: Skill tree Just two comments: For the ones suggested by both Quinn and Heretic - I don't know if I agree with the Throwing and Shooting branches being under the Physical/Body/Brawn parent. The other skills (Armed, Unarmed, dodge, shock) all relate to up-close and personal melee-style combat, whereas Shooting and Throwing relate more to distance/ranged combat. I don't see how being a good brawler should also make me good at shooting my pistol/rifle/throwing javelins (if I understand how skill + points trickle down correctly.) I would suggest another tree branch called Ranged (or somesuch), separate from the Physical/Body/Brawn, under which you could find Shooting and Ranged, and their associated skills. As for the tree suggested by Heretic: the Movement branch. Um. Dancing, and whatnot. Are you actually intending on coding how far/fast we can move? Climbing I can see, because I can think of at least one or two rooms where your ability not to fall down (or climb your way out) might be useful. But running, dancing, acrobatics, etc?? I just don't see any practical advantage to coding how fast we can move from room to room, and whatever else you meant by Dancing, Acrobatics, etc. -------------------------- Message 2097 from *ideas (#504): Date: Tue Dec 16 20:17:34 2003 CST From: Heretic (#6143) To: *ideas (#504) Subject: skills I can see exits that would call all of those skills, or an exit where 2 people enter and the one who runs better coming out the other side faster, or with less fatigue. H -------------------------- Message 2098 from *ideas (#504): Date: Tue Dec 16 20:19:43 2003 CST From: Coreen (#18717) To: *ideas (#504) Subject: Movement skills For something with such limited application, why not just test against the character's attributes? Endurance to get less fatigue...Quickness to run faster? / -------------------------- Message 2099 from *ideas (#504): Date: Tue Dec 16 20:25:27 2003 CST From: Dante (#10660) To: *ideas (#504) Subject: First of all. I'm still against the concept that a person can be equally good with everything, and that some things, persay, claws, bite, flail, should only be available to a recomb. Perhaps trident also should be a mariner only ability as well, it'd explain why they have an overall ability to be a more warrior race. Where as a mage should have focus, and no other class, should also be able to raise that. Either a division of skills which are class limited, *or* a bonus for these skills for those given races. For example recombs would get a bonus with natural weapons, mariners would get bonuses with medic, and spear, mages with focus, and so on. More to come as I read, otherwise I'm of the opinion that dodge and shock should be a hard coded att based ability, that isn't 'trained'. Lets face it, everyone gets shock and dodge, and there really doesn't seem to be a reason to have it increase, just make the bonus extremely more significant. Shooting, Throwing both should be off of a perception based parent, not physical. -------------------------- Message 2100 from *ideas (#504): Date: Tue Dec 16 20:32:16 2003 CST From: Dante (#10660) To: *ideas (#504) Subject: Oh and. I'm of the opinion that a person who is a swordsman, and focuses exclusively in that should be a better swordsman then someone who studies with blunt, shooting, focus, etc. It makes sense that the more abilities one has the overall slow down should increase as well. I'm not saying that given time a person can't achieve the same, but the process by which it happens should be more gradual rather then overall spar fests for every skill 5 times a day. ;p -------------------------- Message 2101 from *ideas (#504): Date: Wed Dec 17 10:18:05 2003 CST From: Quinn (#2) To: *ideas (#504) Dante, you're a classist. I'm classless. :) -------------------------- Message 2102 from *ideas (#504): Date: Wed Dec 17 10:19:28 2003 CST From: Quinn (#2) To: *ideas (#504) I believe Dodge and Shock can benefit from general combat skill. If you spend a lot of time in knife fights, you're bound to pick up some dodging ability, and if you've been wounded many times as a result of those fights, you're less likely to faint when you get nicked. -------------------------- Message 2103 from *ideas (#504): Date: Wed Dec 17 10:21:53 2003 CST From: Quinn (#2) To: *ideas (#504) You're right about the exclusive swordsman versus the swordsmanship of the inherited bluntman, but that doesn't invalidate the tree structure. Those boni are being rethought, as well. For one, an unskilled person will never receive inherited boni. You'll need at least a single rank, and you'll rarely have an overall bonus greater than someone with a larger child bonus. -------------------------- Message 2104 from *ideas (#504): Date: Wed Dec 17 10:24:27 2003 CST From: Quinn (#2) To: *ideas (#504) Subject: whales versus big fish in goldfish bowls Still, a master ninja or black belt in karate is probably going to kick your ass with a sword if you're a beginning fencer, even if he's never touched a sword in his whole damned life. He's got general combat experience, and that carries over. Then again...much less so with ranged weapons, as Ceri pointed out. Originally I had the Melee and Ranged as top-level trees. Maybe we can put those back. -------------------------- Message 2105 from *ideas (#504): Date: Wed Dec 17 10:27:19 2003 CST From: Quinn (#2) To: *ideas (#504) Subject: dancin', dancin', DANCIN'! I like the movement-based skills, although I don't see them being significant yet. We do have the ocean, at least, for swimming. Running would be more a matter of pure quickness and endurance for our gross purposes. I'd probably merge dancing and acrobatics. -------------------------- Message 2106 from *ideas (#504): Date: Wed Dec 17 11:59:25 2003 CST From: Oberon (#22725) To: *ideas (#504) Being classless is one thing. Having everyone be good at every skill is another. -------------------------- Message 2107 from *ideas (#504): Date: Wed Dec 17 12:12:10 2003 CST From: Quinn (#2) To: *ideas (#504) We could develop caps based on ones attributes. Actually, that might be cool... -------------------------- Message 2108 from *ideas (#504): Date: Wed Dec 17 17:29:24 2003 CST From: Dante (#10660) To: *ideas (#504) Subject: Me likes. Yar. Any chance we can get racial benefits in chargen implemented? Even if you're against classes I want to see distinctions and benefits to each racial character type. I'm still annoyed that the majority of people with skills at obscene levels aren't even recombs. ;P -------------------------- Message 2109 from *ideas (#504): Date: Wed Dec 17 18:43:57 2003 CST From: Fortitude (#24841) To: *ideas (#504) There's one thing that's always bugged me about stats here, and I suppose now would be a good time to bring it up. Perception is basically useless, yet it really should factor into a lot of things. For example, it would help you anticipate an attack so you could dodge a punch in a brawl. It would also help with things like aiming firearms, repairing machinery, and healing people. Really, perception is more like an Attribute that should give bonuses to a bunch of skills, rather than a Skill which, as far as I know, has only been used in code that involves detecting something. I don't know if perception should be its own attribute, or if it could be merged with willpower, but I don't really see why it should remain a Skill. -------------------------- Message 2110 from *ideas (#504): Date: Wed Dec 17 21:07:13 2003 CST From: Vertemis (#23360) To: *ideas (#504) Subject: Att caps Att caps won't help. You will still have people who raise -all- their atts, and subsequently, all their skills. You will never have specialization in that sort of system, and there's no reason to even team up with other people. Each person is their own cornicopia of every skill tree. Boring. --------------------------