From quinn@fazigu.org Tue Apr 22 12:08:01 2003 Return-path: Envelope-to: quinn@fazigu.org Received: from constr1-host1.corridor.net ([66.100.236.130] helo=yami.57thstreet.com) by requiem with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1980JM-0003Aj-00 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:08:00 -0400 Received: (qmail 94667 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 16:14:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moo.ghostmoo.org) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 16:14:10 -0000 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:14:10 -0400 From: "Quinn@Ghostwheel" To: quinn@fazigu.org Subject: Ghostwheel Message(s) 9169 - 9274 from *Chat (#5391) X-Mail-Agent: Ghostwheel (moo.ghostmoo.org 6969) Message-Id: Status: RO Content-Length: 75968 Lines: 1923 Message 9169 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Mar 16 18:41:50 2003 EST From: Coreen (#18717) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Tirafal's I think what you meant to say, Tira, was "This MOO is dead TO ME" and "The game is nonexistent TO ME." I happen to know that there are still players engaging in RP and whatnot. Just because you don't see it during your sporadic logins doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Thank you and move on. -------------------------- Message 9170 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Mon Mar 17 18:33:15 2003 EST From: Durandal (#23874) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: re: Tirafal's i think the case is simply that nobody likes you next please -------------------------- Message 9171 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Mon Mar 17 19:58:26 2003 EST From: DragonBabe (#5288) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Re: Post 9162 Looking askance at the posting and eyeing Verte warily! -------------------------- Message 9172 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Tue Mar 18 23:50:29 2003 EST From: Oberon (#22725) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Hmm. Didn't Tirafal quit this place? I have that distinct memory. I could be slipping in my old age, however. Peace Out, Obey -------------------------- Message 9173 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Wed Mar 19 02:07:14 2003 EST From: Mikishi (#24590) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: snoop dogg for sizzlenator look mufuggaz, youz aint got shit. yo rhymes are flatter than yo mommas tits. so fizzuck off. -------------------------- Message 9174 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Thu Mar 20 22:46:23 2003 EST From: Dexter (#14882) To: *Chat (#5391) @rename #5391 to *Liberal Claptrap -------------------------- Message 9175 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Fri Mar 21 16:04:03 2003 EST From: DragonBabe (#5288) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Are we getting all the truth all the time? It is interesting to note that we do not always get all the truth about what is going on in the world. Our news services often don't even report things that should be of interest to us. We get alot of government initiated propaganda and are expected to swallow it all with a glass of milk and a slice of american apple pie. You can find alot of interesting and little or unknown news through http://english.pravda.ru/ . Yes, it is the Russian News Service and most of the stories can, with some digging, be confirmed. If you want to know just a bit more than we are being spoon fed, check it out. I also find the stupidity and greed of some of our news services astounding. Yes, the American people should be informed on what is happening in the Gulf, but this does not mean demanding to know BEFORE the attack what our Military forces have planned. The greed of reporters wishing to 'scoup' other services has blinded them to the very real reality that our 'enemies' and targets DO have the ability to know what is being released to the American people. Yes, I am ranting. I am not happy that we are at war, but feel that it is a very real necessity. The Iraqi people, the people in the surrounding countries and the people even further away (remember Sept 11th?, remember the anthrax?). My son leaves tomorrow for the Gulf. He leaves a wife and two very young children behind. This will be the second time he will be over ther. He first went over at the start of Desert Shield (Before our main troups arrived), was still there during Desert Storm and was one of the last men to leave the gulf after the 'mop-up'. Yes, I am not a happy camper. Please, send your prayers, your good thoughts, your loving energy (which ever you believe in) out to ours and the other nations' military to make this swift and final quickly so that our loved ones, our friends, our neighbors and all who fight to end this regieme of terror. End of rant.. DB -------------------------- Message 9176 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sat Mar 22 00:15:30 2003 EST From: Clayson (#17237) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: say Oh my... First, Tirafal, shut the fuck up. You cheat, you lie, and you can't stand that other players have been here longer then you and have special things., you're an idiot. Now I would like to shout out to those of you who spit on our President, now that we are liberating the Iraqis (sp). Are you dropping your 'Impeach Bush' signs right about now, now that Saddam's army is begging to be liberated, along with the citizens Iraq, did you see that man hitting the poster of Saddam with his shoe today? If you would only spend time staying informed and stop reading bullshit that means nothing. The Democrats, or shall we refer to them as they are, the communist, will feed you lies. Nobody is going to take away the music industry. In fact, if you really knew anything, it was Tipper Gore who tried to take the music away, I think, maybe my mind has totally gone to mush, but I think Mister Frank Zappa challenged her. Or perhaps you fucking idiots have never heard of Frank Zappa. I don't know why the hell you people focus on the bullshit. Nothing is going to happen to our freedom of speech (that includes music) or woman's rights. That is, unless you vote in some asshole who thinks he can change these things, i.e. a clone of Clinton. In fact the Dem's did try to change the constitution during the election, maybe you don't rememberor maybe your were to busy reading crap on the internet. Open your eyes for Christ sakes, stop being sheep. Now, for all of you who never leave your house, a gathering under a tax paying establishment is called a club. A rave, in the beginning was a floating party, held in warehouses mostly, or open fields. They charged up to ten American dollars to dance and socialize, while their hired thugs sold children drugs of fantasy made in someone's garage. But now, a rave, is a 2000 disco, or club, nobody cares. If you understood our government at all you would realize how petty this is. Grow up and focus on reality, the economy, your freedom, and the freedom of your children, that is if you ever have sex and actually reproduce. p. -------------------------- Message 9177 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sat Mar 22 02:24:02 2003 EST From: Dante (#10660) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: If someone was burning the capitol of the U.S... I'd be beating a sign of Bush also, because I'd want them to stop killing people. Iraq must be terrified right now. I know I would be. -------------------------- Message 9180 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sat Mar 22 12:38:21 2003 EST From: Vertemis (#23360) To: *Chat (#5391) You sound just like the Dixie Chicks! Although, they have more to lose when they make silly statements like that. -------------------------- Message 9182 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sat Mar 22 21:31:22 2003 EST From: Red_Fang (#5907) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: *Yawn* You kids... well then we have the two old old ladies who one starts with a C and one with a T who seldom if ever show their pruney noses without a bitch from the moldy closet they call their brain.. Ok, one admittedly is more pickled than moldy.. All this talk of politics and such and not one mention of me.. I'm so sad.. Here I am forgetting to log on to play because I've reached this weird place in my own foggy brain that causes me to mistaken my toaster for a computer and I get agravated when my email keeps coming up burnt like my breakfast.. Now hush up about silly stuff like life and dancing and war and drugs.. You all better start working on my monument to being so great and wonderful don't you think?? Here I am just humble and so sweet I confuse the bees.. Anyhow.. Sorry I've been away.. I've missed you all.. well except the women who want to be like the worlds naggy wives.. Geesh.. get naked and mop the floor already.. Love ya.. Me. -------------------------- Message 9183 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Mar 23 03:04:29 2003 EST From: Aquilya (#4188) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Wow. Well, I see nothing's changed around here. ^-^ Yay. -------------------------- Message 9184 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Mar 23 10:16:23 2003 EST From: Vertemis (#23360) To: *Chat (#5391) You read my post in the wrong tone. Please read the first line with sarcastic amazement. It's much more degrading that way. Maybe like: Wow! Neato! You're as cool as the Dixie Chicks! The second line is to be read with a faux moment of clarity. Reading my post using these notes will best convey the condesending attitude I have towards radicals of either side of the spectrum. -------------------------- Message 9185 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Mar 23 10:22:18 2003 EST From: Vertemis (#23360) To: *Chat (#5391) Hey neat! Iraq just violated the Geneva Convention. But I'm sure that's all right, I mean come on, it -was- against evil America. -------------------------- Message 9186 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Mar 23 16:40:56 2003 EST From: Nny (#25135) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: re: DB I like pravda as well, but for those of you who would take everything there at face value, I give you: BOY SHOOTS FIREBALLS FROM HIS EYES I don't remember if that was the exact headline, but it was on pravda, and featured the touching tale of a young boy employing pyrokinesis. So, yeah. Verify your news sources, no matter where you get them. The media isn't very honest anywhere. ;) --Nny, who likes news.google -_^ -------------------------- Message 9187 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Mar 23 23:47:33 2003 EST From: DragonBabe (#5288) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Re: $ You mean that -wasn't- real??? Well dang it all! *hugs and grins* Cool site! And yes, check the stuff, there is truth to be found, but there is also..well.. DB -------------------------- Message 9188 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Mon Mar 24 01:18:21 2003 EST From: Oberon (#22725) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: That tears it. Among all the crappy viewpoints, I think we can all find it in our hearts to agree on one thing that is wrong with the world: I can't shoot fireballs from my eyes. I mean, shit. Why the hell do I even continue living? Oh well, I guess its suicide again. -------------------------- Message 9189 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Mon Mar 24 13:36:11 2003 EST From: Dante (#10660) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Yeah. Oberon shoots fireballs from his arse, just like William Wallace. -------------------------- Message 9190 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Mon Mar 24 13:43:18 2003 EST From: Tab (#37071) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Re: Post 9165 Hey neat, the US just broke international law... (going to war without UN Security Council consent) But that's ok, the US is protecting us all from 'evil' right......? I can hear the War-Hawks out there growling at the mere mention of that 'hippie-Commie' Security council line. -------------------------- Message 9191 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Mon Mar 24 17:49:18 2003 EST From: Vertemis (#23360) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Oh! I forgot! Two wrongs make a right! And yes, the U.S. is protecting the rest of the world from evil. Just like it has so many times before. All you foreigners can thank us for stepping up to the plate when it's over. We'll tip our hats and say no sweat. We are the good guys after all. -------------------------- Message 9192 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Mon Mar 24 18:43:49 2003 EST From: Elendil (#2237) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Motion to oppress The United States formed the United Nations. That's why it is in NYC. This alleged "international law" was never intended to favor form over function. If the United Nations cannot enforce its own resolutions or police the world, it fails at the express purpose for which it was created and should be disbanded. The League of Nations suffered a similar fate, and for similar reasons. You will wait a long time indeed to see the U.S. sit on its hands over dictatorships and tyranny just because France and Syria vote against it. -------------------------- Message 9193 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Tue Mar 25 11:39:48 2003 EST From: FoxFire (#22153) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Eh, Can't we all just get along, eh!! *smiles* -------------------------- Message 9194 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Tue Mar 25 11:51:46 2003 EST From: Styx (#1610) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Ah lovely war spammage If you are ashamed to be an American you should either do something or leave the country. No sense living in shame. -------------------------- Message 9195 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Tue Mar 25 13:04:26 2003 EST From: DragonBabe (#5288) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Care packages The following was sent to me from an old classmate, Care packages would be much appreciated by our fighting men and women in the Gulf. http://www.uso.org/pubs/93_325_1391.cfm Operation USO Care Package Thousands of U.S. troops have been deployed around the world in the fight against terrorism and in readiness for a possible war with Iraq. The United Service Organizations (USO) is offering a unique way for individuals and corporations to let our nation's defenders know we haven't forgotten them. Operation USO Care Package, initiated by the USO of Metropolitan Washington (USO-Metro), enables individuals to financially support care packages that will be delivered to service members en route to overseas destinations. A contribution of $25 will purchase one Care Package. Because of heightened security, individuals can no longer send letters and packages to Any Service Member. Operation USO Care Package is approved by the Department of Defense, and provides a safe, easy way for individuals and corporations to show their prayers and thoughts are with our service members. These Care Packages help the USO bring a touch of home to our men and women in uniform, said Edward A. Powell, President and CEO of USO World Headquarters. The Care Packages contain an assortment of items specifically requested by the military, such as prepaid international calling cards, disposable cameras, toiletries, and sunscreen. "Operation USO Care Package will continue for as long as our country is at war," according to Elaine Rogers, USO-Metro President. "This program is possible because of the support from individuals, corporations and organizations that donate funds to sponsor these Care Packages." Donations can be sent to: USO World Headquarters P.O. Box 70264 Washington, DC 20024 ****************************** The next may seem confusing, but they can get personal care packages: We've been sending personal packages to one of Connies friends and I he really appreciates them. Of course the ones we send are a little more personalized than these are (Health food items like Hostess cupcakes, Twinkies, Hoho's, and Thin Mints. LOL, Reading material like Local newspapers and the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit issue, which completely embarrassed Frances when she went through the checkout line. lol) One of our friends said to be careful about listing CD's on the customs form, as for somereason they are usually missing when the package arrives. DB -------------------------- Message 9196 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Tue Mar 25 13:07:52 2003 EST From: DragonBabe (#5288) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Re: Addendum to last Be sure that what you do send can go through Xray and other examinations without harm. The troups desperately need suncreen, I would suggest the 'Sport sunscreens' as they do not wash off with sweat or get into the eyes from sweat. They also need chapstick! As the following URL will tell you: http://msnbc.com/news/846463.asp Just click on the photo galleries. One serviceman looks like skin has been scraped off his face from the sand. -------------------------- Message 9197 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Tue Mar 25 17:15:41 2003 EST From: Red_Fang (#5907) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Hmmm Not one mention of my monument.. You people need to get a life.. Geesh.. -------------------------- Message 9199 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Fri Mar 28 08:00:02 2003 EST From: Tirafal (#24173) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Just to keep the pot boiling Does anyone else find it ironic that the US is invoking the Geneva Convention (a treaty sponsored and ratified by the UN) when they DEFIED the UN to go to war in the first place? Excuse me but somehow crying "foul!" in an illegal war sounds a bit like "MOM! He hit me BACK!" -------------------------- Message 9200 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Fri Mar 28 14:55:26 2003 EST From: Ceri (#24980) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: I heard somewhere.... I heard on the news that this war is neither "legal" nor "illegal". The fact is that is NON-supported by the UN. We can go ahead and do as we like, and suffer the consequences of the fact we are NON-supported by the UN, meaning the rest of the world will say and do as they please, (even those Americans who are bitching about rights and wrongs), regardless. THey would be crying "foul" and "right on" no matter what had happened. Myself, I haven't yet made up my mind about whether this war is needed or not. I do however beleive that when bullies continuously taunt the schoolyard, that they need to be confronted. "now, who is the bully? and who is the underdog in this scenario? I will never tell you my opinion. :> Keep the debate going though. It is nice to see how folks all think about the USA. And maybe next time some of those that boo our sports players, or won't stand up and at least say we did something good for them, then maybe we should realize we need to keep pur aid and money at home where it can be better used. -------------------------- Message 9201 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Fri Mar 28 18:41:09 2003 EST From: Elendil (#2237) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Illegal like 12 years of trying to shoot down Coalition aircraft? Did you know that war itself was outlawed in the 30s? Cute. The fact of the matter is that we waited for 12 years for Saddam to straighten out and fly right, and he spent the whole time hiding things from weapon inspectors and trying to shoot down coalition aircraft enforcing no-fly zones instituted to keep him from gassing his own people. Now his 'Fedayeen' are shooting civilians trying to escape behind British lines, and executing anyone who doesn't fight for them. Sound familiar? The Waffen SS enjoyed and employed the same tactics. The fact of the matter is that one cannot fully appreciate freedom until one has it and loses it. As much as I'm sure this would sober you up damn fast, pray that through the efforts and sacrifice of the U.S. armed forces it never comes to pass. In the interim, you can go tell some Iraqi civilians whose relatives were dropped into shredding machines how illegal it would be to help them. -------------------------- Message 9202 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Fri Mar 28 19:12:41 2003 EST From: Jak_the_Yak (#20718) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Either Way Now, the way I see this whole entire thing is more than likely gonna annoy a few people out there, but there's so many different opinions I figgered I could litter you all with my uneducated one as well. As for the 'booing' of national anthems, there shouldn't be any doubt in anyone's minds that such behaviour is severely lacking in class and completely unjustified. Ignorant fans somehow get it in their heads that a good way to show their displeasure for American foreign policy is to tastelessly boo a ceremony celebrating the origins of sports teams and atheletes. On the flip side of that, it quickly spurned revenge 'booing' of the Canadian national anthem. Further proof that the most undefended against thing on our friendly border is stupidity. Somehow it manages to cross to and from both sides without passports, ID, or even fingerprinting. I was recently at an Edmonton Oiler hockey game and during the American national anthem a chorus of cheers erupted at both start and finish. Now, in Alberta it's not unusual for their to be cheering during the American national anthem, but on this particular day the cheers surpassed even those for our local Canadian national anthem. There is support from Canada for what America is doing, just as there is severe hatred for it. I don't think anyone doubts that Saddam Hussein shouldn't be in power and that he doesn't care for his citizens. I think everyone in Canada, even those who don't support the war, wish only for the safe return of coalition forces and utter success on the operation. That having been said one of the biggest fears and hesitations to support 'Operation Iraqi Freedom' is that most of us just don't know why. All of the pro-war arguments I have heard, seem either unsupported because there's simply 'intelligence that says so', or doesn't seem valid considering the many other countries that have very similar leaders, and weapons, to those of Iraq. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not nearly important enough to deserve an explanation, and I can completely sympathize with the need for caution when disclosing information to 'persuade foreigners' while at the same time compromising ones own safety. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not that we don't like the USA, or don't support them in their actions, it's just that alot of us don't understand and Ive always been taught that War is a 'why' thing not a 'why not' thing. I believe Canada should be offering its 7 soldiers, 2 tanks and a seeing eye dog to help the Coalition forces, if not because they've been persuaded, then because we owe enough to the USA as a freind to stand by them when they aren't willing to explain things. But, there's too much phony information floating around the internet to be persuaded by doctored photos and supposed reports. You stand by your friends even when you think they're wrong. PS - SORRY FOR THE RIDICULOUS SPAM -------------------------- Message 9203 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sat Mar 29 09:35:09 2003 EST From: Xrara (#16047) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: War As another uninformed Canadian, I still think I have the right to an opinion. I fully support the war and all the troops fighting in Iraq and the countries who havent put resources into play but offer those fighting their moral support. I wish the powers in Canada had decided to stand by the americans and I think the decision not to help can seriously come back to bite us in the ass. Having worked in an industry thats been a huge negotiation/bitch between US and Canada, I dont worry that trade and business will be hurt. Some things will be hurt and some wont. There are protestors on both sides, and while I usually believe these flakes who hang out on street corners with signs are unemployed idiots who have the time to waste, Im sure there has to be one of them with a job that deals with Canada. That being said..I worry that if and when we ever see an act of terrorism the US will ignore us. Why should they help us when we wont even offer them moral support? They would happily accept the easiest thing there is to give. In God I trust, In Bush I have Faith. -------------------------- Message 9204 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sat Mar 29 11:40:04 2003 EST From: Xrara (#16047) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Just a clip of news from Canada Halifax man will suit up for U.S. cavalry in Iraq. 'He couldnt wait for the Canadians to decide if they were going to do anything,' his mother, Geri LeBlanc, said yesterday. 'He felt that if he didnt do anything, then he was supporting terrorism as well. It was just a little tense there for a little while,' Geri LeBlanc said of their sons decision to join the U.S. military instead of the Canadian Forces. 'Im terribly proud of him,' she said of her son. 'And I certainly wish that some of these peace protesters would stop and think that its young men like him that give them the freedom to do what theyre doing.' I guess there is a way to get around our governments' decisions :) -------------------------- Message 9205 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sat Mar 29 12:09:37 2003 EST From: Tab (#37071) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: re post 9203 Let's think back to the now infamous September 11. After the towers were struck and every plane in the sky needed to be grounded immediately, where did a lot of those planes go? I'll help you with this in case you don't know.....CANADIAN AIRPORTS!! Several weeks afters, George W. had the nerve to declare to all his fellow Americans that Mexico was their most valuable neighbor and best friend. Canucks stopped and scratched theirs upon hearing about this, "........Eh?........." Then Osama and his notorious secret lair somewhere in Afghanistan became all the rage. Canada was never privy to any sort of proof (really) but our brothers and sisters to the south needed our help in nabbing the guy who masterminded this evil terrorist strike (again, no real proof was shown but then again, why would our own brothers and sisters lie about something like this.) So now Afghanistan has been 'liberated' and the oil pipelines can now be built safely through their borders (but of course, this war of terror had absoluetely nothing to do with those oil pipelines.) But the new enemy is Saddam and his nasty regime. Much beyond the fact the guy is a cruel dictator that has done shitty things to his people, there is no proven basis for this war. His weapons of mass destruction? If the Americans are doing as well as they claim in this war, don't you think Saddam would have used them by now? Saddam funds world terrorism? Hmmm....other than the fact he's Arab and has a bad history with the US, no one has been told much more to make this convincing. Canada has finally taken a firm stance on an issue in the world arena. Canada officially does not support the US led war on Iraq. The justifications for this position are obvious; Gunboat-Diplomacy does more damage than good. -------------------------- Message 9206 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sat Mar 29 12:30:49 2003 EST From: Xrara (#16047) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Weapons of Mass Destruction If I was Saddam, I would hold off using the weapons he says he doesnt have. The longer the war goes on without him showing proof of having them, the more likely there is a chance he will get support of neighbouring countries (that he hasnt attacked before). Maybe he doesnt have WMD anymore, but if he does, I'm guessing his best bet is to keep his hand hidden until all else fails. Not to mention..I think the weapons inspectors disrupted any type of building of them and it would take a while to get them put back together again and in place to use; add in the tonnes of bombs raining down on the country and coalition soldiers all over the place..and he's like a mouse running around trying to find the cheese crumbs. And while Im in this mode to rant. I dont believe this is a war about oil. Sure..we all need it, but look at history. Sitting around doing nothing didnt work. Millions of people died because of Hitler. Should the US or any country wait until the war is brought to their shores again before stepping in? Saddam already has tried to take over neighbouring countries. The Twin Tower attack in the US doesnt count as an act of war? I believe the attacks were brought on because Saddam was pissed at the US for protecting the Saudi oil fields and the sanctions they put against Iraq, Afghanastan chose to support those attacks by giving Osama a place to do his dirty work, beneath another tiranical leaders rule. -------------------------- Message 9207 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sat Mar 29 12:53:36 2003 EST From: Tab (#37071) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: follow up Do you have any idea how many nations in this small world of ours is absolutely pissed at the US? Saying Saddam has an anti-american attitude and therefore must have instigated the twin tower attacks means nothing. I am not exactly fond the present US Administration, am I now a suspect in the 9/11 investigations? Do I have to now worry about being seen as guilty until proven innocent? At the end of the day, believe it or not, I don't think Saddam is in the right and should either be removed from power or Iraq invaded. Iraq is in violation of countless UN Resolutions since the Gulf War. What I absoulutely oppose is the US unilateral attack. The US has gotten very cocky in it's seat as the super-power and it's moves like this that rock the boat. If the US had made the case of countless UN resolutions being broken, the final resolution would have been welcomed by the security council, Iraq would, of course, not complied and we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. But the US insists on doing this on their own terms. Even if it continues to wreck their economy. -------------------------- Message 9208 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sat Mar 29 14:32:30 2003 EST From: Xrara (#16047) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Final rant The British and Australian families of servicemen and women will be happy to hear that their children/husbands/wives actually didnt go to Iraq. Unilateral? The US has support from other countries, perhaps if no other country believed that this war needed to happen the US might not have invaded Iraq, but they do have support from other nations. Perhaps its time to start bashing the British and Australians too, the US isnt the only nation involved in this. Say what you want, but we will never have better neighbours than the US. -------------------------- Message 9209 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sat Mar 29 18:32:00 2003 EST From: Oberon (#22725) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Sigh I was going to try to remain uninvolved in this whole fiasco, but you've brought it upon yourselves. Deep breath. Here I go. If I hear one more person treat the UN like a moral bastion of goodness and light, I will vomit all over myself. Whether us moving without UN sanction is illegal or not, going counter to them doesn't make us evil. Every country has personal intentions, just like us, and if you think they're voting against us because of some noble idea of international peace, you are sorely mistaken. It has been proven that Germany sells weapons and technical parts to Iraq, for a very hefty sum, and France's largest company is an oil company with contracts in Iraq. France doesn't want the US to fight not out of some grand moral superiority, but because when we rebuild Iraq, we're going to give the oil over to its citizens. And sure, we'll have more access to it, but this is hardly a blood-for-oil kind of thing. We get 3% of our oil from that area, and we have enough oil stockpiled on our own to last us a hundred years if we stopped importing any oil, whatsoever. Plus, the amount of money to successfully run a war like this costs much more than the oil we would have to gain. It would be an exercise in futility to fight a war for oil. We don't need it that bad. It's a fringe benefit, not a motive. And a little fun fact for you kids - Iraq has killed more Iraqi citizens than the Coalition forces have. Yes indeedy, we must be bad. And as for it being okay for them to buck the Geneva Convention because we decided to enforce the UN's policies for it, that's the biggest load of immoral, ignorant, barely educated crap I've ever had the displeasure of reading. The UN is a barely-functioning carbon copy of the League of Nations, who's members are only concerned for their own countries interests, not international justice. The Geneva Convention was meant to protect heroes from being tortured for sport and pleasure. It's like saying if someone J-Walks (which is more illegal than what we're doing), its okay to rape them. And as for most of the other members of the UN not supporting the US, it's mostly because France lobbied against us, or because most countries don't like the US, because we rule. You don't see anyone breaking immigration laws to flock to, say, Sweden, do you? Of course not. Have we made mistakes in the past? Of course. But we learn. That's what we're doing here. Stopping these things early equals smaller genocide. Ah, logic. My good friend. -------------------------- Message 9210 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Mar 30 02:44:59 2003 EST From: Camber (#22034) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: prev while I don't agree with a few minor points in your rant Obey, for the most part, you took the words right out of my mouth. I think the jaywalking-rape analogy could use a little work. :) -------------------------- Message 9211 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Mar 30 10:32:42 2003 EST From: Elendil (#2237) To: *Chat (#5391) I watched a documentary on public television last night about the liberation of Kuwait in 1991. At the time, of course, there were identical protests in the streets..'No blood for oil', the U.S. is evil, and what not. Even the chants were identical. The fact of the matter is that everyone, including a minority of our own citizens, loves us when we don't do a thing but meekly provide food, medical advances, and technology to the rest of the world, but heaven forbid we act to defend our own interests. These tend to be the same people that subscribe to the idea that we've done something wrong if militants are trying to blow us up. I personally feel that if every fanatic, rabid, uneducated repressive militant out there hates us, it means we're doing something right. -------------------------- Message 9212 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Mar 30 10:55:36 2003 EST From: Camber (#22034) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Patriotism Oh, and Michael Moore should be deported to Iraq. Or better yet, strapped to a MOAB and dropped on Al Naseriah(sp). -------------------------- Message 9213 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Mar 30 11:14:41 2003 EST From: Oberon (#22725) To: *Chat (#5391) Amen, brother. And I hope it was Keanu Reeves who was booing his ass at the Oscars. I could swear that jeer had a surfer accent. -------------------------- Message 9214 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Mar 30 14:42:07 2003 EST From: Styx (#1610) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: The War and Oil Someone needs to show me some proof this is a war about Oil. Conversely, someone needs to show me proof it isn't. Unless you have a crystal ball (that no one else has) no one will ever likely know the true reasons for why we went to war. I am standing by the side that it is about time we took Saddam down. He played us like a fiddle to get into power. It is now time for him to play his fiddle while Rome burns. -------------------------- Message 9215 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Mar 30 14:51:50 2003 EST From: Camber (#22034) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: oil I'd like to see some verified figures on this as well. I've heard varying accounts of how we get less than 6% of our oil from Iraq and less than 15% from the whole middle east, but within that range the numbers have varied quite a bit. -------------------------- Message 9216 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Mar 30 17:39:26 2003 EST From: Oberon (#22725) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Either way The most important part of those varying numbers is that they're all ridiculously low. So stick that in your bong and toke it. Word. -------------------------- Message 9217 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Mar 30 20:03:15 2003 EST From: Red_Fang (#5907) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: kids Well.. My 2 cents are this.. First on the UN, they suck.. The United States pays for its exsistance for the most part.. So they should shut up and do as we ask I reckon.. Damn freaks.. The United states didn't break any laws, we just got tired of the idiots wasting time and billing us for it. And France.. Shame Shame.. Which reminds me, why are all the roads in France lined with trees?? So the Germans could march in the shade.. Oh.. And the Geneva Convention wasn't writen by the UN silly girl.. It might of been adopted by the UN as a whole but there are several countrys in the UN who have never signed the Geneva Convention. SO put that in your pipe and smoke it. Then war for oil??? Hey dumbass, I'd say anything that keeps this country and others flowing is worth it.. But it is true that the United states gets very little of its oil from the Middle East. Do you forget the oil fields off of Norway, Alaska, Texas, California? Hell, these land masses equal about 30 Middle east territories. I imagin France gets most its oil from the Middle east though. Now protesters.. I think they got the right to do as they do, This is America.. Got protest but somewhere in the back of your mind, remember a lot of men and women have given their lives so you can do that. And no matter what, god bless Canada! I just love our neighbors to the north, they make it so we don't have to live in too cold of a place.. Plus they got some really good looking women and some very tasty beers. Anyhow, I've ranted on long enough.. Now where is all the chatter about me?? When did the center of the universe shift from myself to anywhere else?? Hmmm.. Ok.. Just Kidding.. But seriously you are all a hoot and keep me smiling.. Some of my ramblings might be pure bullshit so watch your step.. Love ya. ROb -------------------------- Message 9218 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Mar 30 20:05:05 2003 EST From: Red_Fang (#5907) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: corrections. Hey, just fix all my typo's and misspellings in your head and pretend I'm just brillant.. Have fun. -------------------------- Message 9220 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Mon Mar 31 14:04:31 2003 EST From: DragonBabe (#5288) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Re: Last umpteen posts First, Jak...Nice post, I especially -loved- the last paragraph about Canadian 'forces'. Hehe. Very good. Second, Bush is not always very bright and often forgets things that his 'prompters' don't nudge him with. So he probably forgot how Canada helped us out on the 11th. (I had heard where many of our northeastern flights ended up grounded that day.) Third, I am not a Bush fan. I wasn't a fan of his father, either, but Jr. has done some pretty good things while in office, while also doing some -really- dumb-ass stuff. I wonder what the Mexican Pres has done recently for Bush to say such a... remarkable thing as that? Fourth, Don't get all down on the French. Yes, they were against our 'Operation Iraqi Freedom' and spoke out against it. -IT-, not us, during the UN meeting, but once we, the US, and the coalition forces went in, they have supported it. The French Pres has spoken in support of the coalition troups in their action. Now why the seeming contradiction? Well, France did not want war, but has agreed all along that Saddam and his buddies need to be removed from governing Iraq. So, don't go blowing the French off. The US believes in Freedom and the Right to choose. SO, let's allow other countries the same? (BTW, this is highly condensed, the whole story is out there) Fifth, about the oil. Yes, and No, this war is not being fought for Oil. Saddam -has- stockpiled and used chem and bio weapons against his -OWN- people. Generally those in poorer areas far from the cities and the more influential. He has stockpiled weapons in the past and it is not unjustified to believe he still has them. It is possible he hasn't used them yet because many may have been destroyed in our first strikes (Hell, the man has put munitions in hospitals!), the rest might be hidden where he and his Fadyeem can't get to them because of the Coalition Forces, or he is not using them (as earlier said) to prove his innocence to the world. Now, a great majority of the worlds available (meaning easily and cheaply gotten) oil is in the Mid-East. Argentina was sending us the majority of their oil, but a bit back, they stopped selling it to us. We need the Mid-east oil. (At least until -someone- smartens up and changes our 'fuel requirements') Also, Oil taken from the oceans is, imho, is too detrimental and hazardous to our world, since the majority of Earth -is- water. Now, it doesn't hurt that many of our 'Government Officials' own, through second, third, and fourth parties, -huge- amounts of Mid-Eastern oil concerns. *cough-chaney-cough*. Now Saddam had over a billion dollars in American banks. Some time back the US put a hold on those funds so that Saddam could not get to it. Saddams money (Or is it the blood of his people?) has now been taken from his accounts here in the US and will be used to rebuild Iraq when Saddam and his government is removed. I hope other countries that also hold his accounts will do likewise. In my humble opinion. DB -------------------------- Message 9221 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Mon Mar 31 22:02:51 2003 EST From: Nny (#25135) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: re: elendil blatant nazi references are bad form in any argument At least you didn't say "Hitler", but. Nonetheless, many of Bush's tactics could be attributed to the Nazi regime as well. It's best, in an argument of this nature, to locate negative characteristics of "side B" that "side A" does not posess. ;) Peace, KNEE -------------------------- Message 9222 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Tue Apr 1 19:54:22 2003 EST From: Elendil (#2237) To: *Chat (#5391) You realize this is *chat, not *humor, right? -------------------------- Message 9224 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Fri Apr 4 19:59:48 2003 EST From: Xrara (#16047) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: War I cant imagine living in Iraq before the war. You arent the first middle eastern family type person to voice their opinion either, and Ive heard a lot of people with family in Iraq state that while they are worried for their family, they were also damn worried before the war too. A lot of people with ties to Iraq want Saddam out also. So..sorry to say it, your opinion is worth as much as mine and the next guys. We all get our propaganda from the same places, how we interpret it is left to each of us. I dont consider myself blindly patriotic, if you were on the moo a bit more you might understand that most of the active population on this game is Canadian, not american. just my two canadian cents, spend it how you wish. P.S. - dont assume to know my life/freedoms/heating arrangements. Im logged in now..but you dont know diddly about what happens when I turn off this screen. -------------------------- Message 9225 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Fri Apr 4 20:01:29 2003 EST From: Styx (#1610) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: My two cents which is like $1 canadian Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. -------------------------- Message 9226 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Fri Apr 4 23:14:15 2003 EST From: Jak_the_Yak (#20718) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: I ain't spending any money, here's cheap speech. Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even if you win you're still retarded. -------------------------- Message 9229 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sat Apr 5 12:47:18 2003 EST From: Styx (#1610) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Mikishi I can say the same about your thoughts. But everyone is entitled to say what they think. THAT is why we live in America. -------------------------- Message 9230 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Apr 6 00:52:30 2003 EST From: Oberon (#22725) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: ... The only people who would rather have Saddam as their leader can't really say much, because Saddam has been their only leader, since like 1968. When you drive around everyday with ten thousand statues of the one man who has been leading your country for a half a century, your brain filled with the one government run news station, and your education limited to a dictators personal curriculum, your views are going to be slightly skewed. Nevermind the fact that your own poor living conditions are due to the misuse of public funds to create Saddam's 46 palaces equipped with gold faucets and artificial waterfalls. Nevermind the fact that the evil sanctions and economic restraints placed on you by evil America (actually, The UN you guys love so much) are only placed on you because your leader is a schmuck who won't follow the rules. Those weapons don't dissapear. If they had them, and there's no record of them destroying them, they still have them. This is basic math. And if they don't have them, they sold them, and prompted by this hefty sum, they no doubt would have continued to produce them, at the very least for the sale aspect. Unless Saddam's platinum plated toilet seat went over the factory's budget. Bah, America warmongering. Whatever happened to disliking the bad guys? And know, predictable smart asses, America is not the bad guy. And please, one more person try to tie their viewpoint into the supposed lack of popular vote to George W. Bush. You remember, the fact that is both childish and irrelevant. If Gore had won with the electoral system, you guys wouldn't say a damn word. Oh yeah, and defense requires attack. Booyah. Oh, and the faltering economy you can blaim on Clinton's do nothing, inflationary economic strategy. Every president's economic involvement doesn't usually kick in until around the president leaves. Why do you think Clinton stumbled onto such a good economy? Oh, and I am sexy. That is all. -------------------------- Message 9233 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Apr 6 12:57:20 2003 EDT From: Tirafal (#24173) To: *Chat (#5391) Now this is an interesting article: http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6230427%5E26277,00.html -------------------------- Message 9234 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Apr 6 19:10:01 2003 EDT From: Styx (#1610) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Scavenger Hunt Starts tomorrow. Send me a page if you want the list. -------------------------- Message 9235 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Mon Apr 7 00:04:47 2003 EDT From: Oberon (#22725) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Duh Of course we told them not to destroy their oil wells. Its Iraqs only export, the only way its people are going to be able to support themselves, and prosper. We dropped leaflets to protect their own interests. We get a ridiculously small amount of oil from Iraq. Oh yeah, and twelve North Koreas couldn't kick our ass. We're taking one threat on at a term. It's called strategy. -------------------------- Message 9237 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Mon Apr 7 04:01:09 2003 EDT From: Oberon (#22725) To: *Chat (#5391) Well, we do have satellites pointed at Iraq, and we do sorta see everything. Propaganda is usually untruthful. And most people hate America because we kick so much ass, have better living conditions, and more freedom than you can shake a stick at. -------------------------- Message 9238 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Mon Apr 7 19:47:39 2003 EDT From: Elendil (#2237) To: *Chat (#5391) The truth hurts. Speaking of which, one of the real ironies about America is that the immeasurable security and prosperity it provides its citizens leads some of them to lose all perspective as to the benefits they receive. This is less common in other countries where you spend 20 hours a day hunched over a rice paddy, and then die at 38 from heartworms. Someday those trust funds can run out, though. -------------------------- Message 9239 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Tue Apr 8 02:30:21 2003 EDT From: Nny (#25135) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Penis blankets Shush up now. It's just another war. Lot of dead people. They're not Americans. They're not white. They don't love God. They don't matter. Who cares that we're rounding up middle eastern people in the US and throwing them out of the country? There's a local DJ -- here in the bay area -- who's being tossed out with the garbage. Very talented young man. But he's one of them rug-hugging ragheads. Maybe we should stuff him in a bomb and drop him on Baghdad. We took out a military bunker the other day. A military bunker with a volkswagen in the garage. 'We'. You see, those sneaky Iraqis disguise their bunkers as apartment buildings. That's even what they call them, in raghead-speak. 'Apartment buildings'. It's to confuse us. Know your place. Shut your face. Stopper up those ears. Cover those eyes. We're not murdering them. We're saving them. Saddam can't beat them up for lunch money if they're dead, ha ha! A clever strategem if I've ever seen one. A lot of people agree with the stated reasons for the attack on Iraq. A lot of people think -- hey, even if it is for corporate interests, so what? Good for us! I never claimed Saddam was a decent guy, you understand. But -- as silly as it may seem to bring up ethics and morals in the realm of politics ... well. Are -you- part of the 50+% of americans that think Saddam was directly connected with 9/11? What are the stats like for that in canada? Is everybody up there stupid and gullible too? (Saddam is blatantly anti-muslim, for those of you not in the know. Selling weapons to Osama ... well. He's a clever chap. If he wanted to kill himself, he'd use a .45 in the mouth like everybody else.) What's my point? What is my mother-fucking point? Murder for any reason is abhorrent. Taking what belongs to someone else, for yourself, is wrong. War is a plague. Ignorance is not strength. If you lie enough, the lies don't undergo an alchemical transformation and become true. George W. Bush II snorts vast quantities of cocaine, and behaves pretty much like every other cokehead on earth. Earlier today several people in oakland -- mostly innocent bystanders -- were gunned down by police employing rubber and wooden shotgun rounds. Here are some pictures of what 'nonlethal' ammunition does to people. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/images/0407-05.jpg http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/images/0407-08.jpg You can find the story on Yahoo! or CNN, I'm sure. It's been edited a couple times since posting, however. And some of the really graphic images are gone. ^_^ \/ Nny -------------------------- Message 9240 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Tue Apr 8 02:52:21 2003 EDT From: Vertemis (#23360) To: *Chat (#5391) Odd, they look alive to me. Guess the non lethal ammunition did it's job. -------------------------- Message 9242 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Tue Apr 8 08:32:10 2003 EDT From: Red_Fang (#5907) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: my 2 cents You know I don't like this war, war is ugly busness.. But you know what else.. I am kind of proud to live in the best country in the world where I can listen to both sides of the converstation.. Also, a friend sent me a email that reminded me of a few things.. I know most don't like spammy messages so skip it if you want but you know. It kind of says a lot of what America could of done and the restraint she's shown to the world considering what was done to her. so it follows next. -------------------------- Message 9243 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Tue Apr 8 08:33:27 2003 EDT From: Red_Fang (#5907) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: The English Journalist No matter what your views on President Bush's statement of upcoming war, this, from an English journalist, is very interesting. Just a word of background for those of you who aren't familiar with the UK's Daily Mirror. This is a notoriously left-wing daily that is normally not supportive of the Colonials across the Atlantic. Tony Parsons ... Daily Mirror ... September 11, 2002 One year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting -- the mass murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's Mountain of Skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps. An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one thing - nobody deserves this fate. Surely there could be consensus: The victims were truly innocent, the perpetrators truly evil. But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year. There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country; too loud, too rich, too full of themselves, and so much happier than Europeans -- but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach. America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children -- not just Americans, but from dozens of countries -- were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we so quick to betray them? What touched the heart about those who died in the Twin Towers and on the planes, was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's son and somebody's daughter, husbands, wives, and children, some unborn. And these people brought it on themselves? Their nation is to blame for their meticulously planned slaughter? These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan. The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission. The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since September 11. Remember ... remember. Remember ... the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive. Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning skyscrapers. Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive. Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum. Remember. remember ... And realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like the way it could have. So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked up without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass the Kleenex. So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired their semiautomatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti. AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq -- that's what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination? When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that -- and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war. The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell" if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe. The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived. But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand -- assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting. I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be, rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that. Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers. Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire Department. To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Remember. remember ... September 11. One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America. No, do more than remember. Never forget. -------------------------- Message 9244 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Wed Apr 9 21:08:09 2003 EDT From: Elendil (#2237) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Today's headlines. Arab-Americans rally after Saddam statue falls Tens of thousands of Iraqis celebrate in streets of Baghdad. Residents blare horns, dance, empty government offices Emotional torrent greets American G.I. Arrival In Central Baghdad Arabs Shocked, Relieved at Baghdad's Fall - "[The Iraqi Information Minister] told us lies. We will never trust Al-Jazeera again," claims Egyptian shopkeeper Joyous Streets Pampered U.S. protesters begrudgingly return to mediocre colleges, Phish concerts Ok, I made that last one up. Or did I? -------------------------- Message 9247 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Thu Apr 10 01:47:45 2003 EDT From: Vertemis (#23360) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: War is horrible. And I don't think anyone here denies that people die and get hurt in war. Nor is there denial that people will be sad when people lose loved ones. Sometimes, however, it is unavoidable. Anyone who thinks Iraq was just fine under Saddam's rule is just uninformed. He is a dictator. He wasn't chosen to be leader by anything other than a small coup who happened to take advantage of the fact that the government of Iraq is a closed system. He's an assasin. He's President, Prime Minister, Chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council, and Chairman of the Regional Command of the Ba'th party. All positions intended to be held by different people for checks and balances sake. When he assumed these titles, he executed all political rivals on the Revolutionary Command Council, and outlawed all other political parties. Does this sound like someone a populace should honor and respect? Majority of people operated out of fear. Others are swayed by the fact that they've had one leader for 30 years. Ask any senior citizen what they think of FDR. People begin to latch onto leaders that stay in power for a long period of time, out of fear of change. This is also not just a right wing stance. Clinton had steady streams of arial defense strikes, and continued to operate no-fly zones over the Kurds. This isn't something that just popped up. It's just easier for people to watch Friends and Will and Grace than to pay attention to what is going on in the world. Lastly, I'm not saying anyone should shut up. America is grand. It's one of the few countries where people can utterly hate what their government is doing and still rent a DVD at Blockbuster and pick up a $7 Mocha Blast, with no fear of being thrown in jail, or being murdered for having different beliefs. Political debate keeps us well informed, as we scour resources for information to back our arguements or discredit our opponents'. -------------------------- Message 9248 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Thu Apr 10 02:08:01 2003 EDT From: Oberon (#22725) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Man I wish I had family in the Middle East, so I could make my viewpoints seem valid too. Man. -------------------------- Message 9252 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Thu Apr 10 16:06:58 2003 EDT From: Ceri (#24980) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: boy with arms Ever consider that the Iraqi army deliberately used women and children as human shields? I know if someone was shooting at me, I would shoot back. They also used hospitals and civilian schools to hole up in and fight from. I blame these men also for the casualties. Not just the Americans. When we were being fired upon from historical religious places, the army did NOTHING, trying to save the religious icons. Now, what about those things? -------------------------- Message 9253 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Thu Apr 10 16:12:02 2003 EDT From: Ceri (#24980) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: anotehr take I am from Dearborn, Michigan. Why do I say this? Because outside of the Middle East, there are more Arab citizens here than any other place in the world. Dearborn Michigan is home to MANY Iraqi's, Chaldeans, etc that still have more family in the old country than they do here in America. When the statue of Sadam fell, an impromptu parade started in the heart of Dearborn. Many thousands took the streets, waving their home country flags as well as the American Flag. Dozens were interviewed and not one held any bias for America. Some of the participants were even tortured and imprisoned themselves by Saddam and his regime. They were ELATED at the fall of Baghdad. The question was not "Is this war wrong?", but rather, "Now what will happen? Who and how will the new government evolve?" I think this is the burning question here. Will America and the coalition now bow out and let the UN and Iraq restructure? And will the American abandon the fledgling new government, to be taken over again by yet another dictator? One of the Iraqi's interviewed celebrating the downfall of Baghdad told how he was tortured and imprisoned for 10 years. His crime??? He was told he prayed too much and that could lead to dissidence. Another had been tortured and his children beheaded in front of him because he looked "wrong" at a Ba'ath party member.This doesn't sound at all like feelings are cut and dried. And they shouldn't be. Two sides keep things level. How this will all play out is something that is yet to be written. I hope all involved will live up to this historic moment and cause pride, not shame for themselves and their countries. I also heard about the over 150 children released from a prison there, CHILDREN, imprisoned because they refused to join Sadam's youth group. Their parents were in the streets to meet them, having been denied even visits of these youngsters for years. What a strain to live under day after day. One Iraqi in Dearborn said he believed these news reports of people in the streets frolicking. He said simply, "If Sadam WAS still in power, the streets would be empty." I had to agree. -------------------------- Message 9254 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Thu Apr 10 18:51:41 2003 EDT From: Jak_the_Yak (#20718) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: What ever happened to terrorism? This is a true genuine question to people, I'm not trying to provoke any war debate or make some kinda snide saracastic remark. What ever happened to public enemy number one. And no I don't mean classic old school rappers 'Flava Flav' and 'Chuck D'. I mean Osama Bin Laden. Has he been pronounced dead and I never heard about it 'cause of other serious things going on in the world? Is there still a search for him going on? Has he been releasing any more random videos recorded in dingy sand-caves? Is he Saddam in disguise? Ok, so the last one wasn't serious, but I can't seem to stay on task for more than 30 seconds now adays. The other ones are serious and I was wondering if anyone had heard anything. I must say I'm a little surprised at how unimportant he and his 'terrorist network' have become to the media, I thought maybe I've missed some closure to what was the biggest risk to the free world not even 6 months ago. Jacques le Yaques. (Sweet Jebus I'm French. Someone stab me in the ear with a q-tip.) -------------------------- Message 9255 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Thu Apr 10 21:46:09 2003 EDT From: Oberon (#22725) To: *Chat (#5391) Technically, having family there would be a third person perspective. Not to go over _your_ head. -------------------------- Message 9256 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Fri Apr 11 00:15:10 2003 EDT From: Dante (#10660) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Bah. The war sucks. Theres hidden agendas, and nothing in even the remotest sense will be beneficial when it's over. The same thing will repeat, and all that has changed is that the U.S. has started a boiling pot of a lot of negative feelings and angry countries. Oh but thats whats great about presidents, because we can just get a new one and pretend nothing ever happened. Yay! -------------------------- Message 9257 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Fri Apr 11 00:40:58 2003 EDT From: DragonBabe (#5288) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Re: War et al Okay, a few points here. 1: France was upset that the US went ahead and 'invaded' with the coalition forces. Once the US was in there, like a few days, France went on record saying they supported the US and coalition forces in the campaign to remove Saddam and his fellow terrorists. Well, terrorists is -my- word, cause that is what they were to the Iraqui people. 2: Many of the Arab nations were angry with the US, but few are any more. Most do support the effort to give Iraqui her freedom back. 3: The Iraqui's in the US, the exiled, displaced people, do -not- want the UN involved with helping to rebuild and get their own Gov going again. They will accept gladly help in the form of food, moneys to help rebuild their cities and industry, water, all the humanitarian aid the UN can provide. But NO rebuild of the government. 4: Haven't you seen the dancing in the streets of Iraqui? The people thanking the soldiers of all the groups? Have you seen the prisons and the records and the scars and the books telling of what was done to prisoners? One young man was held in saddams prison for 8 years, no trial (saddam didn't have trials) but this young man was there because he 'prayed' too much. So, he was a radical that could harm Saddam. 5: I am not sure why I am posting again. But as dissatisfied with the government we have in the US as I am, and having lived in Europe, seen many forms of gov over there and how people are forced to live under some governments.. Hell, I would still rather be here. I can yell and rant and disagree all I wish, and the government won't throw me in prison w/o a trial just because I dissent. Anyway, I am glad this is about over. (Hopefully!) And that no more of our men and women and those of the Coalition are killed, that the Iraqui people, no matter their ethnicity or religion can now put their country back together, with the help of many countries, and govern themselves in peace. End of rant. *hugs* to all. DB -------------------------- Message 9258 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Fri Apr 11 00:43:25 2003 EDT From: Red_Fang (#5907) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Re: In Response to Red_Fang and Elendil, or What is Mikishi talking about? Ok Ms. Mikishi, So you've heard alternate news sources.. Yes they are out there.. Kind of like the Iraq fellow who was on the news reporting not more than 3 days ago that the Americans where hundreds of miles from the city and that they where killing thousands of the american troops.. HA! So yeah there are other news guys out there printing darn right lies.. Where is that guy now?? Hmmm?? One thing you gotta say about America is our press might be backwards and screwy at times, but the truth is there right in front of you.. We watched it with our own eyes.. It wasn't staged for Saddam or some other goverment.. It was our own. So, go back to your dreamland and let the bad people tell you what the think. Because you sure aren't showing signs of thinking for yourself.. Lucky this is America, or you might of gotten your tongue cut off or something.. So, keep marching to that drum sweetheart.. The I told you so days are coming. -------------------------- Message 9260 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Fri Apr 11 01:25:00 2003 EDT From: Mikishi (#24590) To: *Chat (#5391) I also find it amusing that I'm accused for "not thinking for myself." Does this mean anybody who disagrees with you doesn't think for themself? Great logic. I read news sources on both sides and weigh out my personal decision--what I believe is morally right. Wow, yes, aren't I just another sheep in the herd? hahaha. -------------------------- Message 9261 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Fri Apr 11 01:30:28 2003 EDT From: DragonBabe (#5288) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Re: $ Well, I could always loan someone my AK..heh, Mossberg anyone? Geesh..Now I *am* gonna be in trouble. -------------------------- Message 9262 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Fri Apr 11 01:32:14 2003 EDT From: Mikishi (#24590) To: *Chat (#5391) omg dragonbabe like WTF??????? that is like sooooo messed up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! u r like soooo ostoopid! u dont think for urself! go back to lala land!!1 lol -------------------------- Message 9263 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Fri Apr 11 01:33:11 2003 EDT From: DragonBabe (#5288) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: re: $ *SOBS* -------------------------- Message 9264 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Fri Apr 11 01:33:45 2003 EDT From: Mikishi (#24590) To: *Chat (#5391) i told u so!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAH!! I WIN!!!! -------------------------- Message 9265 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sat Apr 12 18:41:17 2003 EDT From: Dexter (#14882) To: *Chat (#5391) HAHAHAHAHAHAHA WE WIN!!!!!!!!!!!! NORTH KOREA'S NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BEST. PRESIDENCY. EVER. -------------------------- Message 9266 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sat Apr 12 19:07:15 2003 EDT From: Elendil (#2237) To: *Chat (#5391) Most anti-war folks that I've talked to, when I really press them, end up admitting they just don't like Bush. They don't feel he was elected, and therefore that he isn't a legitimate president and by extension he can't declare wars or do anything. I can understand not liking Bush, I don't really either. However I think he got it right on the money with Saddam. He thumbed his nose at us for 12 years, and Clinton (who I liked) was so hyper allergic to U.S. casualties that he'd bail out the second we got attacked..embassies, Somalia, you name it. Bush does the opposite, and it works. Fly planes into our cities? Guess what, we invented planes..and now _your_ skies are filled with them. Killing U.S. citizens at work may be easy, killing a U.S. marine at work is one of the hardest things in the world. And it's time the world remembered that. -------------------------- Message 9267 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sat Apr 12 20:59:14 2003 EDT From: Red_Fang (#5907) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Mikishi >>I also find it amusing that I'm accused for "not thinking for myself." Mik, you screamed "Oh my the U.S. is blowing up babies" Well, I am sure a baby or two might get blown up. Compared to the number that will be saved from a horrible life in a country where the leader would gas his own people... >>Does this mean anybody who disagrees with you doesn't think for themself? I'm sure you do great thinking for yourself when it comes to feeding yourself and tying your shoes.. But you sound seriously young and foolish babbling garbage that is fed to you from who knows where.. >>Great logic. Oh yeah, logic. We see so much of that in the middle east.. Like hey, lets run that road block where them american solders are holding big guns.. Thank goodness we got the kids in car seats... >>I read news sources on both sides and weigh out my personal decision--what I believe is >>morally right. Hmm, get a new scale. That one is broke.. You need to read the news from left to right in the west.. maybe that is why you got confused. >>Wow, yes, aren't I just another sheep in the herd? If you are, better stay out of Texas. >>hahaha. So, if you don't like it go over there and be a human shield for the babies, or better yet, strap a bomb to your ass and go see Ala. -------------------------- Message 9268 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Apr 13 02:22:15 2003 EDT From: Oberon (#22725) To: *Chat (#5391) Amen, Red. Amen. -------------------------- Message 9269 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Apr 13 10:44:45 2003 EDT From: Tirafal (#24173) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Quote of the day 'Loyalty to the country always, loyalty to the government when it deserves it.' -Mark Twain- -------------------------- Message 9270 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Apr 13 16:49:35 2003 EDT From: Jak_the_Yak (#20718) To: *Chat (#5391) But seriously, no one knows what happened to Osama? Isn't he the plane-flyer? Man, even terrorists aren't allowed to extend their 15 minutes of media-alloted fame these days... If this is any indication of our self-indulgent memory span then I won't even be able to spell Saddam in a matter of weeks. Fuck closure, I want someone new to hate already. Iraq's boring, they've had the limelight for a too many weeks as it is. I find it disgusting that people are more than willing to compare all of these tyrants and terrorists to Hitler, but we don't even hear them mentioned after the media farts in a new direction. At least people still remember the what happened in Nazi Germany. International war criminals have shorter careers than reality TV stars. If ever there was an insult to Osama's terrorist organization it should be that. I remember Survivor, but will I remember him? If we're gonna care, let's care. None of this half-assed bullshit that seems so very important but manages to fade from memory faster than Who Wants to Marry A Millionaire. Will I remember Iraq or will I be watching another country on CNN? -Jak el Yak -------------------------- Message 9271 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Apr 13 20:03:51 2003 EDT From: Tirafal (#24173) To: *Chat (#5391) Considering that Bush is already making noises at Syria and Iran like he did before the Iraq invasion, you can count on it. -------------------------- Message 9272 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Sun Apr 13 21:40:38 2003 EDT From: Elendil (#2237) To: *Chat (#5391) I'm sure we haven't forgotten about Osama and his sexy buddies. The fun thing about the U.S. is we can do many, many things at once. Don't mistake media coverage for policy focus. Some blonde kid could fall down a well in Oklahoma and that's all we'd see on the news for a week. -------------------------- Message 9273 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Mon Apr 14 08:43:37 2003 EDT From: Tirafal (#24173) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: Quote of the day "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." -Thomas Jefferson- -------------------------- Message 9274 from *Chat (#5391): Date: Mon Apr 14 20:30:18 2003 EDT From: Oberon (#22725) To: *Chat (#5391) Subject: A Truly Profound Quote "Life... is like a grapefruit. It's orange and squishy, and has a few pips in it, and some folks have half a one for breakfast." - Douglas Adams --------------------------